ei-lena:

jaysbookofshadows:

answersfromvanaheim:

theravengoes:

oakenroots:

thetwistedrope:

oakenroots:

yuugureokami:

smarmykemeticpagan:

(not gonna include the person’s username cause why bother)

I’m not about to say anything that hasn’t already been said, but jesus christ, this is a obnoxious and unhelpful attitude to have toward relationships with deities in general, much less in a faith like kemeticism, where expecting reciprocity is a completely historically verifiable thing (same for akhu/ancestors!). People would summon, plead, cajole, or even threaten the gods in order to get something from them –protection, a good harvest, the gods’ blessing, etc. It is outright ahistorical to sanctimoniously tell people that they don’t have “the authority” to ask for what they need from a relationship with a deity, or be disappointed or angry when the deity doesn’t do what they said they would. 

It is way more common than people like this would have you think for gods to offer deals in order to gain worship, or certain favors. Talk to many of the people who have been spirit workers for a long time, and many of them will have this common SPG. Set specifically got me to actually change religions by not only promising to help me, but by actually, consistently helping me over a matter of years, in ways people like the person who made these tags would probably claim is sooooo unreasonable. Why should I, or anyone, feel that we owe gods worship if they would never lift a finger to help us? I have not a lot of money and even less time; I’m not gonna use it to endlessly flatter a cold, unfeeling icon who needs nothing from me but demands everything, based on nothing but their status as a god and my status as a human who can hear them; and the ones I work with consistently do not expect me to.

At the end of the day, people who say things like this are, in my opinion, just complaining about how other people’s religious practices don’t look the way that they personally think religious practices should look. What amazing insight and standing with the NTRW do you personally have that gives you the right to speak for all the gods on this, anyhow? You really think that you’re being “respectful” by telling people the gods are unanimously too haughty to care about any of their devotee’s “petty” needs or concerns? If your relationships with the NTRW consist of you giving nothing but praise and offerings without ever wanting to gain anything from it, more power to you, but you don’t get to tell everyone whose experiences are different from yours that they’re out of line.

Can we also talk about the bullshit assumption that a mortal’s requests of their gods are petty things that “merely” avert panic attacks? Like, that’s classist and ableist as fuck. I’m not just asking for a shiny toy, or a flashy car. This is my LIFE that I’m expecting help with. I’m trying to afford my healthcare, to keep a roof over my head and food in my child’s belly. I’m looking for help with literal, actual life and death matters for me and a child. These are not *petty* requests to avert a panic attack over inanities. Nevermind that panic attacks are serious physiological events. It’s downright insulting and callous and cruel as hell to snidely look down your nose at someone destitute and downtrodden and characterize their suffering and cries for help as petty and laughable.

Faith involves trust and I can neither trust nor worship a god who doesn’t give a shit about me. I don’t have time, money, or energy for that. If a god wants my attention then they can put out. I don’t consider myself “authority” over them, but it’s pretty straightforward that if you want someone to love you and be devoted to you and give you nice things, you aren’t going to ignore them and abuse them and manipulate them. Fuck out of here with that shit. No, gods aren’t “required” to return our worship with assistance, but humans are not machines and we need reciprocation and that is NOT unreasonable to desire or require!

It’s abusive as hell to tell someone that they don’t deserve reciprocal relationships with the gods just because they don’t “owe” us anything for our worship. Your sorry ass isn’t owed love by anyone but I’m pretty sure you’d be upset if your lover told you they weren’t going to do anything for you and that you asking for attention, help or affection was just going to prompt them to ignore you! I really hate people who honestly believe the gods have a right to abuse us and consume us. They don’t. They do not. I’m tired of hearing it.

I know this generally refers to the NTRW but I would like to chime in here. The Norse Pantheon, who I’ve been working with for most of my life? Throw temper tantrums like children when I forget about them. Odin will have it rain on a perfectly clear day JUST for the time it takes me to walk between buildings. When I appease him, the weather clears up, there’s always a cross breeze, I excel in school, and my sleep is deep and restful.

The same goes for Frigga. When she is displeased with me, my plants wilt, my cats get sick, I wake up freezing in the middle of the night, and my luck just cant get straight. When she is appeased, my garden thrives, my luck is just unreasonably good, my home is happy and peaceful and there’s always a parking spot in the shade for me.

A great amount of my “luck” in life can be attributed to them. I don’t ask them for much else. Success in individual situations, sure, but for the most part they provide for my well being in exchange for little more than a well tended garden and a flaming drink now and again. Yes, I expect these things of them, and generally they deliver on them with little trouble. We have an agreement. When I ask more from them, I provide more. When I’ve been neglectful, their protections and assistance stop.

tbh, i’m a little jealous of how present they are for you XDD There have been a few instances where stuff like this has happened (I think, at least. f’ex, one year my parents weren’t going to do literally anything for my bday until a “random” late-season storm cropped up outta nowhere and blew out the power so they had no choice but to take me out to eat), but its not a terribly common thing, afaict.

my personal spirits (read: menz) are far more like this, I feel like. they make sure that little things happen to make bigger things easier. which i think is the biggest suckfest about the conversations regarding the NTRW. I think many of us aren’t asking them to necessarily move heaven and earth, but jfc at least act like you give a shit about the tools you’re ruining…

For me, it takes very little to make me not want to work with a deity/spirit. I used to live in a mill house and the branch of the Swatara river running under the house was a fickle bitch. It ran cold when I went for a dip, the fish all ran off when I tried to fish, just a real bitch. Telling it “You’re not my river! I don’t own this land! I can ask the landlord to trim down the stream weeds, but I’m literally not allowed to do any maintenance to you!” was not a good enough excuse for it. So I refused to work with her. Stopped cleaning up the banks. She got lonely and suddenly herbs started growing in a patch near the bank. I agreed to clean her up once a week or so, and she agreed to stop being a jerk.

Negotiations are fun for me. I usually set a ceremony around the holidays for it, I’ll have to take pictures this year. So I set two shots, and 2 candles and address my gods. I light the shots, and throw a rune to each. Usually I get a “Hi!” Rune, like Gebo (Gift-Odin’s Rune) when addressing Odin, and Berkanan (Unity-Frigga’s rune), then I do my ceremonial shtick “Oh, Odin, (insert fancy title, fancy title, fancy title, fancy title) as I celebrate X I thank you for your wisdom and (insert list of favors granted), and I offer onto you this food and drink. I wish for you to join in my celebration. (At this point I sometimes pause because Odin is picky about his liquor and if he doesnt like what I’ve offered, his shot may blow out- Frigga likes cheap fruity wine mostly). Then I spend a bit talking about what I need to get done (see: what I want)so that I will have more time and energy to offer to my devotions (see:what they want). Here is where I list out what I plan to do in my garden, the projects I want to complete, habits I want to start).

As I go through the list of things I want help with, and what I plan to do for them, I will cast a rune. Runes like “Joy” “Dawn” “Rebirth” are affirmatives that they like what I’m saying. Runes like “Disruption” “Thorn” “Mystery” and “The Devil” mean they don’t agree with me. Sometimes they feel I’m not offering enough. This is usually where it turns into a drinking match between me and Odin. I will say “I want to do X but I need X from you. I will do X in return” and the shot will go out and refuse to be re-lit four or five times. Or I will get the same “negative” rune in response too many times in a row.

So I break it down “Are you saying you CAN’T do this for me?” (YES/NO)

If yes, “Are you saying you WONT do this for me?” (YES/NO)

If yes, “So you don’t WANT to do this?” (YES/NO)

On and on getting more specific and determining whether Odin or Frigga are being greedy, or unreasonable, and if I can negotiate (Frigga has shut me down until I agreed to switch to non-chemical fertilizer-took me a long bit to figure out what she wanted)

Sometimes it’s silly stuff, Odin will be disagreeable when talking about me learning languages because he wants me to practice my Norse.

Sometimes it’s serious stuff. I’ve basically been scolded by Frigga and Odin about my money management and self care and relationships. Example:

Me: Give me luck with money.

Odin: No.

Me: Why not?

Odin: *Gives me the Ox Rune* Work harder!

Me: That’s not an option. I’m a full time student remember?

Odin: *Gives me the rune of thought* Budget better!

Me: *hangs my head in shame and revises my money goals, telling them how I will spend less on coffee in order to start putting aside for debt*

Odin: *Gives me Jera, Rune of success*

Going back to the original point for a second:

One of my favorite things from my time in Celtic (Irish) Recon was learning about the toscad.

In Brehon law, one of the most important social structures was the concept of good hospitality. You were *required* to meet any need of a guest that lay within your power to do so, and failing to do so was not only a stain on your character, but literally threatened the fabric of society/the universe.

Naturally, this became a way for the impoverished to get their proper due from those in power. The toscad was the method of choice – a ritual hunger strike on the doorstep of the one who had wronged you or otherwise failed to provide adequately. By refusing the social custom of partaking of your host’s food, and thus fulfilling their social obligation, you forced their hand, giving them one of two choices: give you what you demanded, or have your death on their hands (one of the absolute worst breaks of hospitality imaginable). This is where the Irish prison hunger strikes were derived from during the fight for independence.

Now this is all well and good, you say, but this is about humans dealing with other humans, not gods and gods are above…

Nope. Stop right there. Here’s where you’re wrong. *The Tuatha are bound by Brehon law*. Period. All the laws apply equally to the spiritual realm as the physical. If Nuada isn’t upholding his kingly obligation to provide for his worshipper/subject (aka, you), *you have every right* to plop yourself down on his (metaphorical) threshold and tell him to fuck himself and you’re not moving or eating until you get what you want.

Tl;dr The Irish strongarmed their gods to get what they want and you can too. Fuck this monotheistic idea of divinity being all powerful and demanding of subservience and groveling

In Heathenry, this sort of reciprocal relationship is kind of the point of giving offerings. You give a gift, the expectation is that the deities gift you in return. If the deities are not gifting you in return, something is wrong. 

The op clearly has a very Christianic view of gods, and that’s disappointing. You can get so much closer to your gods than the Christian church will ever allow or think possible.

Any one-sided relationship where one party is expected to give and give without asking for reciprocation, and the other party is allowed to take and take and return nothing, is inherently abusive. 

You are under no obligation to allow humans OR gods to treat you abusively. Nor any other entity.